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Governor of Kaduna State, Senator Uba Sani in this interview with Seun Okinbaloye on Channels TV, Politics Today programme speaks on the protest controversy, curfew among other issues. OLUMIDE OLUSEGUN brings excerpts.
You had come out to say there is no curfew in Kaduna State and everything is under control. Some will say things escalated so quickly, how do you describe the last day and how it has been for you and your government?
In Kaduna, I can say that since yesterday, everything has been calm. Everything is in control. We did not experience any protests today (August 2) in Kaduna. Protests ended yesterday at about 3 p.m. So in Kaduna, we are fine. That was the reason why we did not impose any curfew in Kaduna. That was what happened. Also, the protest started peacefully in Kaduna at about 10 to 11 a.m. But somewhere along the line, some miscreants hijacked the rally. And of course, as a result of that, a few individuals among the miscreants decided to attack about two government offices, as well as looting the house of one very innocent woman. That was what happened in Kaduna but at about 3 p.m., everything was at rest and the protesters went back home. Of course, but what we noticed in Kaduna is that there was a lot of infiltration by some disgruntled elements. That was the reason why we called last week that in Kaduna, we are not against anyone coming out to protest because, being also a member of the civil rights movement and pro-democracy movement in Nigeria in the past, I participated in many protests in this country, and I led the protest myself. But in this case, we realised that some elements within the country, some in Kaduna, probably used these gullible children because in Kaduna, most of the people that came out, were young children between the ages of 15, 16, and 17. So for me, I felt it was really unfortunate. And of course, when I saw some human rights activists speaking with you just now in your studio, I was really surprised because if you are a human rights activist and you are calling for the protest, just like we did ourselves in the past, we led it. We don’t sit down in the comfort of an air-conditioned studio asking people to go out for a protest. We should lead it. We led it. And as a result of that, some of us went to detention a few times in this country that was against the military. And today, we are in a democratic dispensation. I feel if people want to protest, they should come out direct and lead the protest so that they don’t leave the protest in the hands of young children that they recruited and they put them on the street and they hide in the studios of national television and talk. So for me, that is my only problem. In Kaduna, we made it clear that whoever wanted to protest could come out. We asked the police to guide them, to ensure that they give them security. But unfortunately, just 30 minutes into the protest, some of these brutal elements probably that were recruited also by some elements hijacked the entire protest and attacked even the police. But of course, we intervened and asked the police not to respond. And I want to commend the police here in Kaduna. I have heard a lot of people condemning the police around the country, but in Kaduna, they acted professionally. They decided to ignore even those who were attacking them. And of course, at a certain point, they only used tear gas because that is the normal convention to use tear gas whenever there is a break of law and order. When people begin to attack or break into shops and offices, certainly they have to intervene at that moment. So in Kaduna, I can say things went extremely well, apart from the fact that some miscreants hijacked the protest. But at three o’clock, like I said, everything went normal. That was the reason why here in Kaduna, we do not impose any curfew. And today, as I am speaking with you, people went out and continued their normal activities and their businesses. And that was the reason why I was really surprised when some people that were calling for this protest, many, many weeks, they were not organised. They led the protest in the hands of children, people that they recruited, but they did not guide them. That was a problem. But like in Kaduna and many other states around northern Nigeria, I am sure the reason why we witnessed a lot of lootings and vandalisation in Kano and other states around the north is simply that they let those people they recruited go out and begin to loot some people’s shops. It is unfortunate because when you are calling for the government to do what is right, to address the problem of hunger and many other things, why do we attack the shops of people who are also struggling, the middle class, the downtrodden, doing their businesses? But at the end of the day, they were the victims. So for me, that is not the protest we are talking about.
What are the other incidents that have happened beyond the ones reported?
In Kaduna, as I said, we did not experience any major problems because only Castile and Kadipa were attacked and looted. They were all government agencies. So for me, that was the only incident that happened in Kaduna. But of course, we were lucky because they did not go to the shops of some innocent people like in other states and begin to loot their properties. But of course, even though we are here in Kaduna, we will not be happy to see things that happen in Kano or what happened in Jigawa, what happened in Maiduguri, Borno State, what happened in Niger. It’s unfortunate. That was the reason why some of us were a bit skeptical about the motives and the intention of the people calling for this protest. Most of them, I can tell you, were in the television interview with you, why didn’t you ask them? Why didn’t they lead the protest? Where were they? That is a question journalists should ask. When we called for a protest against the military in Nigeria, we led the protest. In Kaduna here, I led several protests. I led it during the era of the military when we were working closely together with our leader, Chief Gani Fawehinmi, Ransom Kuti, Femi Falana, you know, all of us. Even I heard Ebun Adegboruwa telling them to calm down because I can say that Ebun Adegboruwa was with us. We went to the street with him against the military. I do remember vividly. He knew the meaning of protest. He knew that what was happening today in this country was to the detriment of the downfall of not even the government because these protesters were looting the shops of innocent people, people who are also struggling, and people who are affected by this economic hardship. So that is the reason why I think those calling for this protest should sit down and look at the situation critically. When they are saying, President Bola Tinubu should come out and speak. Granted, we have problems in Nigeria, but most of these problems if we want to be sincere, were inherited by this previous administration. That was what I was saying. Maybe most of them do not have the data and statistics of where we are coming from. If you look at the poverty index in this country, look at where we were in 2023. Look at the problems we are having, just look at where President Bola Tinubu took over this government. At that point, look at where the problem was. And within a year and only one month, if you want to be sincere, nobody will address these problems within only 13 months. So let’s be fair. That is the reason why a lot of people were suspecting the motive and sinister of the people calling for this protest.
Are you saying that the protest is not justified?
Let me be very frank too. Most of us were asking people to allow this protest to speak to the government, to now at least explain their grievances, so that at least people will hear them. But unfortunately, if you ask me, if you want me to be sincere, my opinion will be different from most of the people who are sitting with you in the studio, because I am a veteran of protests in Nigeria. I was in SSS cell, I was in a police cell, and I was in detention several times because I led demonstrations in Kaduna. In those days, I led over 5,000 people to the streets of Kaduna. Many times, I not only took 100 or 500, 200, and 5,000 people to the streets of Kaduna. And of course, I was ready to be detained. I was ready to face the authority because it’s a matter of ideology. I believe in good governance. We believe in democracy. That’s why we fought for the term of democracy in Nigeria. But what happened in the last two days? I must be frank with you. The leaders of the agitators of this protest should have led it so that they could control these gullible Nigerians who went to the streets and started looting and destroying government properties while we fought the military. I remember in 1991, I led protests against the government. It was the Babangida’s government. But the governor then became a civilian governor in 1992. I led the demonstration in Kaduna. Over 5,000 people followed me, but there was never an incident of breaking or anything. We didn’t touch government properties. We didn’t allow anybody to loot any shop. That was a protest. And the government listened to us. But when you lead children, you stay in your hotel room or outside the country or in the comfort of studios, Channel television, Arise, TVC, talking about protests. What do you know about protests? You should be on the street. If you believe in what I said, the protest is not about speaking grammar.
From your explanation, does it mean that you are saying that there is no organisation, or are you suspecting that the protest was against the Tinubu government and that there are suspicions of some people working for the removal of the Tinubu government from your explanation? Is that what you are saying?
Let me be blunt with you. As a person of concern, because of what happened, I can see that some people mobilised some very gullible Nigerians, most of them are children, most of them are not educated, to go to the street, to now go against the government. It’s a matter of political revenge. Okay, let me use this word because most of them lost the election. Most of them never wanted a soldier to be president. But in my own opinion, some of us have been better in this role. Wait, you can change the government through the ballot. You can mobilise people. It’s a matter of 2027. We don’t mobilise gullible Nigerians, misinform them, or misguide them, but their children are not on the street.
The issues they have raised are issues of anger, hardship, and economic situation in the country, and the downturn that Nigerians are expressing. Are you saying that those are not tenable and those are not valid?
It’s valid. In this country, I do not doubt in my mind, there is hardship. A lot of policies of the government are helpful, but I believe it’s a matter of time. We need to give the government time to address it. But if you have any grievances, constitutionally, you can come out. Like I said, I am not against protests. I have been supporting people who wanted to protest by telling the police in Kaduna, to escort them, give them security, and make sure that you protect them. That’s why in Kaduna, we don’t have any counter-protest.
Governor Sani, I imagine that you are one of the most experienced governors out of the 36 state governors who have been part of a protest. I imagine that you would have gone to address them or speak to them. Is there a reason why you decided not to?
Let me be fair with you. The day we were escorted to the government house, I was ready and prepared to address them. But when they were coming some groups came out and hijacked the protest. Before coming to the government house, they went to the office of Castelia and Kadipa. Even though Castelia and Kadipa’s office is in Kaduna, they are just about 300 to 400 meters away from the government house. On the way, those migrants broke those offices. Vandalised those offices. At that point, I said, no, these are not protesters. These are migrants sponsored by some political elements to go against the government. Because if they have come peacefully, of course, as someone who believes in protest, I will certainly address them. But on their way, they broke offices, vandalized offices, and looted offices. How do I address people like that? What do I tell them? And I asked the police, who is their leader? There was no leader.
You stated some things tonight, and you brought a political perspective into the reasons for this protest. In Jigawa, Borno, Nassarawa, Katsina, and Kano are a few of the states where curfew has been declared in one way or the other, either in whole or in part of the state. And if you look at all of these states, none of these states are in the southern region of the country. They are all in the northern region of the country. And for a student of history like myself, there hasn’t been in the last 20 years or so, so much of a protest in the northern part of the country, so much that it will escalate badly to have turned into shutting down a state in the northern region of the country. Most of the protest activities that we see are mostly coordinated from the southern region of the country. These are facts, but I’m not trying to put a theory to it. But since you have put up a narrative, is this fact relevant to what you have said tonight, where we find nothing less than five states of the northern region of the country under curfew as a result of the escalation of this protest? Make sense of it for us.
I will answer it from two perspectives. Number one, I will start with northern Nigeria, where I come from. The reason why I insist that this protest is being perpetrated is sponsored by some elements that want to achieve political revenge against the president and some governors. I have my reason. Let me verify with you. They did not succeed in the southeast. They did not succeed in some states, even in the south-south. But I will tell you why they succeeded in the north. Because when you look at the developmental indices, as we are speaking, facing northern Nigeria, in the north, 70% of our people, as we are speaking, are completely financially excluded. Number of out-of-school children in all of Nigeria, 18.3% are domiciled in northern Nigeria. Number three, if you look at the level of poverty index we have in this country, 65% of our people in northern Nigeria are below the poverty line. Now, it was very easy for them to misinform, to misguide, and to recruit most of the gullible people. That is why when you see states like Kano, Jigawa, Niger, and Katsina, those children that were on the street, they have burnt most of the offices of government, looted most of the shores that belong to even the middle class and the poor people. That is the reason why I believe there was a level of recruitment. That is one perspective. The second perspective, if you listen to me carefully, is that, look, yes, I agree. These elements I am talking about, may not be from northern Nigeria alone. They are from all parts of Nigeria. But they succeeded in northern Nigeria because of this problem. And why am I angry? Let me be frank with you. They’re not that we belong to, including myself. Why do we have this very disturbing developmental index? We had power in the north for more years than any other part of Nigeria. Asiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu is not responsible for the problems we are facing in the north, including the insecurity we are facing. Let me also give you these statistics. As far back as 2016, there was nothing called kidnappings, insurgency, and banditry in the northwest part of Nigeria. The northwest, Kaduna, Kano, Sokoto, Zamfara, Kebbi, Jigawa, and Katsina. That is eight years from today. Why are we in this situation? And today, most of those elements that took advantage of this problem and instigated the children of the poor, their children were not on the street. That is why this crisis was more serious in northern Nigeria. And that is the reason why there was a lot of looting, breaking of offices, a lot of recklessness in the north. My point here tonight is that if we want to be sincere to ourselves, how do you blame Bola Ahmed Tinubu for these figures, statistics, and data? In my own opinion, every leader in northern Nigeria, whether you are a governor in the last 15 years, senator in the last 15 years, council member in the last 15 years, minister, governor, vice president, president, or even local government chairman, we should be held accountable to this problem. And instead of us to begin to blame President Bola Ahmed Tinubu, we should sit down and look at ourselves in the mirror and address this problem. But when we continue to be in denial, continue to attack the president, or misinform the vulnerable people in northern Nigeria because they are not educated. That was the reason why I came to Kaduna as a governor when I was elected when I signed the executive order that we need to make sure that we bring back at least N2.5 million vulnerable, underserved, and poor people to the financial services sector. As a senator in the last, in the 9th Senate, covering about 90% of the financial services sector in Nigeria, I was the chairman of the committee on banking, insurance, and financial institutions in Nigeria. So by that, I covered 90% of the financial services sectors in this country. And I know the data and statistics. That was the reason why I was calling on our leaders in the north. That is unacceptable for us to have 70% of our average age remain financially excluded. In Kaduna, in the last four months, we have been able to bring N2.5 million and we are targeting another one million. Most of our unbanked people, how can they benefit from any special intervention by the government.
You have raised this narrative, but I’m wondering how plausible is what you have explained. Because if there is a president that has been elected and confirmed by the court for the next four years, how would anybody be able to remove him from office? It takes away the fact that there are people who are legitimate on the street and asking, based on their agitation, asking of the government to do what the government is meant to do for the people of this country. How do you respond to the agitations and the chatter of demand of these protesters, Governor Sani?
Like I said, if you listen to me carefully, among these protesters, some people certainly came out genuinely. When we led protests in Nigeria, we just announced there would be protests against the social policy of the government. People on their own came out. When I said I led 5,000 in 1992, it is not like I had contact with all the 5,000. But they came out because they know we have good intentions. We spell out our demands. We made it clear. We educated our people. This is what we asked for. In this situation, I can agree with you. There are some legitimate demands, and there are people who come out with genuine intentions. But again, the people are calling out that they took this opportunity of the situation we are facing in this country to infiltrate it or to recruit other people to try to see if they can now come up with something that can bring the reputation, and the integrity of this government. That is a problem.
How do they hope to remove this government if you think that the plan is to remove this government? How will they do it?
I didn’t say removing the government, but because I am a veteran of this struggle, you don’t have to protest to remove the government. You can’t walk toward an anarchy in a country. What they did today in Jigawa, Borno, Katsina, Nassarawa, there are protests. Some parts of Nassarawa will be included in some parts of Niger. What are we talking about? No business activities going on on those sites. Some people have to go out daily to do business to be able to earn their next meal. Today, they cannot go to open their markets. They cannot do anything. What do you put those people? And those agitators, as I am speaking with you today, in their houses, in air-conditioned, because they’re comfortable. So there’s nothing wrong with protest, but don’t put innocent people into more hardship.
What would you say is a lesson out of this protest? For those of you in the political class and those of you who are at the helm of affairs, the people are asking that you watch how the people of this country are being served. The issue, the hardship, the poor, the vulnerable in this country, what lesson do you think that this protest has portend for the ruling class in this country and the government of the day?
I think the lesson is for everyone, not only the government. The lesson is also for the poor people there in the masses to be careful. I want to make some calls for three groups. Those gullible children who are on the street that was used by these people to come out, next time they call for protest, please, they should ask them to lead the protest. That’s number one. Next time they ask for a protest, they should ask them to bring their children to the street. They all have children that are mature and they are adults. That’s number two. That’s what we did when we were doing protest. We came out. That’s the first message I have. The second message I have is as a government, I do not doubt in my mind, we inherited a very broken system as a government, we inherited a very bad economy, which was accepted and agreed by everyone in the area, whether you’re in the opposition or you are in the ruling party. That is the consensus. We all agree with that because we’re in this country. Now, I believe we must work up and quickly address most of those problems, particularly things that have to do with the reduction of poverty, and creating jobs in this country. Yes, people are talking about palliatives. Even, I am not an advocate of palliatives. I don’t believe people should be given palliatives. I believe concrete policies should be designed that will quickly change the fortunes of Nigerians. We have to look at the economy critically and come up with some measures that will quickly now address most of this problem. Farmers in this country, I believe, like in Kaduna, agriculture contributed about 42.8% of our GDP. The same thing with many other states in Nigeria. I believe the President has done a lot in trying to address the issue of agriculture, but I believe a lot has to be done. Our economy needs to be looked into because if you look at it, look at the cost of funds in Nigeria. If you want to do any business, you want to borrow money. As of today, 30% interest rate. I don’t think anybody can do business and succeed or survive in this country, because it’s also very difficult. So there are many things that we need to address. There’s a cost of funds. You go to the bank, you want to borrow money. The interest rate is too high. Someone can borrow money from another country, come to your country, establish an industry, and you can put yourself out of business because you must have borrowed the money cheaper than what you have borrowed in Nigeria. So there are a lot of measures that need to be looked into. Is it the economy? Is it agriculture? Is it trying to also create jobs? So many things have to be done. I agree with that, and we don’t have time. Time is on our side.
Look at some of the low-hanging fruit on the Charter of Demand of these protesters. One of it includes that there should be a reversal of fuel subsidy. And they are also asking that there should be a reduction in the size of the government’s cabinet. Are these possible to be done immediately? How would you react to those demands by the protesters?
As far as I am concerned because we are trying to be very blunt here, when we talk about reducing the cost of government, it’s very important, because we are facing a lot of problems. For instance, let me give an example of Kaduna. Since I came in as a governor, in the last 13 months, we have not bought a single vehicle for any commissioner, no vehicle for any advisor, not even myself or the deputy governor, because we know the situation we inherited. So we do not do that. We reduce the salary of even our commissioners. Myself, I’m taking 50 percent of my salary, including allowance, everything put together. The Deputy Governor is taking 50 percent. Our commissioners have decided to sacrifice the performance bonus that I inherited when I came in as a governor. I told them we cannot do that. So in Kaduna, we have reduced the cost of governance. That is why we can do certain things. And how many commissioners do we have? 16 commissioners. Only last week, we decided to also remove three major different agencies, because we realised that when I came in, there were three major administrators in Kaduna. That’s Kavanchan, Kaduna, and Zaria Administrators. And I realised that all those creations when we put them together, we have hundreds of staff there. We are spending a lot of money. So the state assembly decided to now strike them out to the state assembly. Why did we do that? We don’t need 16 commissioners. We need only 13 commissioners so that we can reduce the cost of governance. We did that only last week in Kaduna. So for me, yes, reducing the cost of governance is key because of the situation we have found ourselves in Nigeria today. When things get better, we can adjust, which is acceptable.
What about the fuel subsidy? They’re asking for the reversal of the policy on the removal of fuel subsidies.
Let me be very blunt with you. I think the issue of fuel subsidy is technical. If you look at it, have you asked yourself, most of those countries that border Nigeria, is it Niger, is it Cameroon, is it all those countries that border Nigeria, if you go and ask, most of them are using Nigeria because of the smuggling. So if you see what is happening, as I am speaking to no country in West Africa that is not benefiting from what is happening in terms of the low price of oil. So I’m not saying there shouldn’t be the removal of oil subsidies, but I’m saying there should be a conversation. What I think should be done, the management of the NNPC Limited should hold a town hall meeting, bring the stakeholders together and the people of Nigeria together, and explain to them, that this is where we are. What is your contribution? When I came as a governor, I called a town hall meeting because there were some decisions I was trying to make that were very painful. And I told them, this is where we are taking these decisions at the town hall meeting. Surprisingly, the stakeholders were the ones who said, go and do it because we are now keen on the program. We support you because it is a business, but I think there’s a lack of communication. That for me is very important. But you don’t blame the president because the president has done his job by appointing ministers and key government officials. It is their responsibility. To reach out to the public, to explain every government policy, they must come out and try as much as possible to share those things with them and get the inputs of the people into every policy of the government. And people must buy any policy and they will defend it, they will support it, no matter how good the policy is.
Police are said to have arrested about 25 persons. And there are talks that members of the I.M.N. are part of those arrested. Can you confirm that to Ross?
I can confirm to you that the police realised that most of those people that came out and attacked the police, were arrested as I told you because they broke into the shops. And when they were taken to the police station in Kaduna, they interrogated most of them. And because they found live ammunition, and some of them even were caught with guns in Kaduna at the rally. So when they took them, why are you having live ammunition and all that? They said, look, when they investigated them, they did a lot of interrogation. The report I had yesterday from the police and the DSS is that most of them are members of the I.M.N. So for me, it’s unfortunate. That was the reason why when people are calling for protest, they should come out and lead it so that they make sure that people do not infiltrate. Because if you call for protest, please come out. I am an advocate of protest. I will continue to support protests in Nigeria because I was part of that. But please, my last message to people who want to call for protest in Nigeria, I want to urge them, to please lead the protest. Even in this current democratic dispensation, when there was a labor protest in Kaduna, if you ask them, I participated there in this current dispensation because, for me, there is a sovereign protest. But please, it should be done in a proper way where those calling for the protest, should lead it. They don’t sit down and say they are big men. There are no big men in agitation. Come out. Are you afraid to go to the police and just talk? There’s no reason to be afraid. We did it during the military. We visited the SSS to tell them we were doing a protest. We visited the police. That was the issue.
