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In this interview, Nyesom Wike, the Minister of the Federal Capital Territory and former governor of Rivers State, discusses the Rivers State crisis and his ongoing feud with his successor, Siminalayi Fubara, among other issues, with Seun Okinbaloye on Channels TV’s Politics Today.
The destruction of those local government offices in your (Rivers) state was anything but honorable. What is your assessment as a leader in the state?
There is no decent person, no one who believes in the peace and stability of any nation, who would support violence and destruction or want people to live in disharmony. However, when there is violence and instability, it is crucial to ask the question: what has led to that violence, instability, and destruction? If at all, this is very important. As a governor, I have always obeyed the rule of law. You heard Governor Fubara say that our state is turning into a state of anarchy, where people do not obey the rule of law. What does it mean to obey the rule of law? You must respect and obey the judgment of the court. You must not take the law into your own hands, regardless of how you view that judgment. The moment you do not obey a court’s judgment, you invite anarchy and violence. Now, was that destruction done before now? The point we are making is that a governor came out on national television—not local television—to tell the world, “I will not obey the court’s judgment.”
Did he say that?
Yes. In fact, to crown it all, he said there was nowhere in the judgment that the court said the election should not hold. He went as far as to say, “I do not need police to conduct an election. I do not need a security agency to conduct an election. I don’t need protection for life and property.” When someone says, “I don’t need police,” what are they saying? They are inviting violence and hoodlums, suggesting that the police will not be involved.
Well, it seems that you are misinterpreting what the governor said.
I am not misinterpreting. You heard him say, “I do not need police to conduct an election.”
Because they withdrew police from the RSIEC office?
Fine. What is the function of the police? What is the function of state security? To provide security so that hoodlums cannot take advantage and commit crimes. And you are saying, “You can go. I don’t care about that.” In that case, who is the perpetrator of that violence?
Are you blaming the governor for the violence?
It is not about blaming; the governor is the architect of the violence.
But you have been blamed. Accusations have been directed at you. If you heard some of the social media videos that surfaced, those saying, “No Wike, no Rivers,” and those destroying property—there are faces linked to the pro-Wike supporters in Rivers State, and they have been pointed out as having caused that mayhem yesterday.
You saw them causing the mayhem? Destroying property?
They are caught on tape. You can see some of their faces where they were smashing tables.
Those faces you saw smashing things are my supporters?
Those who were chanting were the ones saying, “No Wike, no Rivers.”
How is that my business? You saw me; I was in Abuja. I never went anywhere. But if your supporters are being linked to such an event, what would you say to them? If I know my supporters, I would condemn it.
Are you able to condemn what happened yesterday? Because some of those who were said to have marched to those venues were said to be your supporters, who were chanting, “No Wike, no Rivers.”
Let’s not change the narrative. What was said is this: people do not want to obey the rule of law and all laws and orders. What is law and order? What are people saying? Obey court judgments. Let me ensure that we don’t change the narrative. All of you presented yourselves to the court. All of you brought your legal representation, your lawyers, and senior advocates of Nigeria. The matter was argued, and the court issued a judgment that, in my opinion, is what should be done. Therefore, I have to say you should do this, you should do that. Fine, that’s the court judgment. We went with the order. You heard the president say that the judiciary can settle all political disputes. Those who went to court, what did they do for the judiciary to settle disputes? And you came and asked a governor to say, “No, this is a fraudulent judgment,” accusing the judiciary of being fraudulent. I will not obey this judgment; I will go ahead and do what I am trying to do. In that case, who is inviting violence? Who is inviting anarchy? You heard him say our state is going to a place where people do not want to obey law and order. What is law and order? It is obeying what the court has said. This country is one where people try to seize opportunities because Wike is here. “I have a grievance against Wike; I want to settle that grievance. This is the only way I can do it.” You forget that it is not about Wike; it is about society, about the state, about our nation. If today a court gives a judgment—not an order but a judgment—and says, “Look, this is what we do,” you have the right to appeal. You went for an appeal, which means you are aware that there was a judgment against you. You don’t want to be patient and follow the due process. Let the appeal process play out. You come on national television and say, “I will not obey; it’s a fraudulent judgment.” I have never seen that in my life, where anyone can come out and say that a judgment is against them or not in their favor, attacking an institution and saying it is fraudulent. INEC said, “We will comply with the court judgment.” What did they do? The REC, the resident electoral commissioner, who acted on behalf of his office, was removed because he said, “Look, we are going to comply with the court judgment.” When he said, “We are a party to this suit, and the court has taught us,” and therefore, “we are going to comply with the judgment,” he was met with, “No, get out. I don’t care.” The DSS was stopped. I said you don’t do this. We are not in a lawless society, and I feel so bad today. I hear many people saying, “Nobody should derail democracy.” Let us ask ourselves: who is derailing democracy? Who intends to derail democracy? Is it the person who says law and order should not be respected? Is that promoting democracy? I have heard former Vice President Atiku Abubakar and former President Goodluck Jonathan talk about the derailment of democracy. Atiku said, “Oh, I praise Fubara for standing tall.” He is standing tall to say that court judgment should not be respected. Is that the Nigeria we think will grow tomorrow?
You are a life bencher, a very senior member of the Nigerian Bar. There are fundamental issues here. This judgment that you are talking about, how do you see it as a legal practitioner? That a court is stopping a major institution of state from performing its constitutional duty. The police and DSS were asked not to perform their duties. What do you make of that?
The court said, “You cannot support an illegal act.”
It said security should not be provided.
Because it is illegal. What is the problem you have? If you have seen the judgment, what did the court say? The court said, “Listen, INEC, you are the custodian of the voters’ register. It is the INEC register you must use in conducting any election in Nigeria, whether local or general.” I did not hear where the Supreme Court said we should go and conduct an election. What the Supreme Court said was that you cannot continue to say you want to set up a caretaker committee when you know that the tenure of those in office will be expiring. Therefore, you must set up a process to conduct the election. It is not as if you are not aware that the tenure of Seun Okinbaloye will expire, so you can start the process according to the law to conduct that election, but you refused. Because this country is one where anybody can do anything and go free, and all you do when you do that is forward to social media to carry blackmail and propaganda without telling the people what happened. You said stopping institutions from doing their lawful duties. That’s what I’m talking about. And I’m saying nobody stopped. All they said was, “You cannot be part of an illegal act. You must comply with the provisions of the law.” What these people want to do is illegal.
So someone can wake up tomorrow morning and stop a presidential election?
No, that is not correct. That is why I said, listen to me. What is the problem? People say the Supreme Court ruled that they should hold an election, that you cannot set up a caretaker committee; you must conduct an election. Conducting an election does not mean you will not follow due process. What is due process? You must give notice and publicize the time for the election. The APC went to court to say you did not follow due process by law. If you don’t want to follow it, INEC should not release information because this is a violation of the law. Have they done wrong? And police, your duty is to ensure this is in accordance with the law. If these people say they want to go on with this, you cannot participate; it’s illegal. And the court made it clear that INEC cannot proceed. Let them go and comply with what the law says. If they comply, go ahead. The court didn’t say you can never conduct an election.
What do you make of the jurisdiction of the federal high court in a local government election?
No, that is not the problem people have. The issue is that INEC should not release the voters’ register, and the police and SSS should not be part of it. These are federal agencies. You cannot go to the state high court; you have to go to the federal high court. That is why they went to the federal high court. No state high court can preside over any matter that INEC is involved in.
If you look at it from the flip side, there are conflicting orders from courts of coordinate jurisdiction in Rivers State.
That is not correct. That is why people should get the facts clear. This matter was filed in July. The Attorney General was sued on behalf of the Rivers State government. INEC, the Inspector General, and the Secretary to the State Government were also sued. In July, the plaintiff’s lead lawyer is one of the renowned lawyers we have in this country. The other parties had their own senior advocates involved. Then you talk about coordinate jurisdiction. And I said this matter involved the Attorney General, who represents the state government. They sued the Rivers State Independent Electoral Commission, which is supposed to conduct and receive the voters’ register from INEC. The reason they sued them was that they were to receive the voters’ register to conduct the election. Without the voters’ register, you cannot conduct a local government election. So I told you that was filed in July. Arguments were made, and the court reserved judgment. Now you went and sued yourself.
Who are you talking about?
The APP that was declared, that one, sued themselves, sued the governor, and their cronies. They sued the state independent electoral commission, which was already a party in the federal high court? Of course, they refused to defend. Look, we were ready before the federal high court. It’s a game. The Attorney General was before the state independent electoral commission; that’s in the federal high court. Then the APP went to the state high court to sue the same government that was already before the federal high court, to sue the state independent electoral commission that was already before the federal high court. They then got an order on the 4th or 5th of September and kept it before the judgment, when they had given them notice that judgment would be tomorrow or the next day. They then revealed, “We have an order from the state high court.” Now let me tell you: you say you gave INEC a directive. INEC is a major party to be sued. How can you give INEC, a party that is not in the suit, a directive? You gave the IG an order. He’s not in the suit.
So you are saying that the state high court should not have entertained that matter in the first place. Is that what you are saying?
First of all, it’s not possible. How can you give an order to people who are not parties to the suit? It’s impossible. And in any case, which is the later ruling? Not an interlocutory injunction or an ex parte injunction, but a judgment of the court. That’s why they have appealed. Why not be patient and see what the appellate court will do? The judge was wrong, and the appellate court said the judge was wrong. We don’t take the law into our own hands.
There are those who believe that you know the game, that there was a deadline and a timeline upon which local council elections should have been conducted. That all that is going on is for you to hold the Rivers State Government in such a way that they will not have access to their funds.
I take exception to that. First of all, I don’t know when they sat down with the Federal Government or how the Federal Government worked out that arrangement. I am not a party to it. I don’t work in the office of the Attorney General of the Federation. I didn’t go to court; APC went to court. They went to court in July, and this is October. The problem we have is that, in most cases, when you don’t have good lawyers doing your work, you blame the judges. If you have read the judgment, which I think you should have, nine preliminary objections were raised from July. Look at it. The judge considered all nine preliminary objections and gave his opinion, and then went into a substantive matter. What is my business? Is it okay? Even if I do the job as a political strategist, what’s wrong with that?
Are you saying you are not aware of all the gimmicks that are going on because they said you are the one behind all of this? You are the one behind APC. You are the one behind PDP, and you hold all of those structures. You must be a superpower.
You must be Superman.
Is Tony Okocha not your man?
How is he my man? They fought against me in the governorship election. So how is he my man?
Some are saying that you brought Tony Okocha on board.
How could I have bring Tony Okocha, who is in APC?
You are denouncing your friend, then.
He is my friend; that does not mean that I brought him to APC.
They say he is your political friend, that you have used APC to hold the structure?
Hold on. He fought against me in the governorship election, but he is my friend.
You fought the APC, but you worked with them during the presidential election?
No. I said that for the presidential election, I am going to support equity, fairness, and justice. And in the other one, I am going to support my party. That is why we won the governorship and national assembly elections. But for the presidential election, I have no apologies. Because I don’t believe in injustice. I don’t believe that you should not allow other people to participate. Today, people say, ‘Oh, discipline Wike. He did anti-party.’ I did not do anti-party. I said we must stand for equity, fairness, and justice. Today, what happened? The governor was responsible for sponsoring the APP. The chairman of the Governors Forum was the one who attended the swearing-in of the APP chairmen. So what is all the hullabaloo about? What is all the cry? I said I am not going to support injustice, and I have no apologies to render to anybody because in our party, the PDP, this is what we have said we are going to do. And getting to this point, he refused. I said, okay, if you refuse, I will also not agree to this. And I have no regrets at all.
The grievances that the likes of Austin Okpara have against you because you didn’t stand with the party.
That is what I call political illiteracy. When they make that kind of statement, they are politically illiterate. I don’t blame Austin Okpara. How do you beat a child and say he should not cry? In 2006-2007, he wanted to run as governor of Rivers State. We belonged to the same group with (Rotimi) Amaechi at that time. We supported Austin to become deputy speaker at the National Assembly to protect and support Amaechi’s ambition. He developed an ambition to be governor. We said, no, we will not allow that. This was not what we agreed on. Why should you betray us? The reason we supported you to be deputy speaker was to protect our interests in Abuja so that we can produce a governor. Upon getting there, people spoke to him about how he was qualified to be a governor, and then he started his governorship campaign. By the grace of God, he did not become one. In 2014-2015, I was instrumental. We fought with Amaechi to restructure the PDP, and we won with the structures of the party. Amaechi left for APC. I had him on television when he said things about Jonathan and his wife.
But were they not also responsible for your emergence?
I have always not wanted to go into that. It would be unfair before Almighty God for me to say that Patience Jonathan never supported me. It would be unfair. I don’t have the heart to say someone who supported me never did. I would not.
Let’s say, in part, that family made you politically. Jonathan made you minister and then governor?
No, that would not be correct. You must give credit to Jonathan for appointing me as a minister. You must give that credit, and I worked for it. I did. Nobody can say I was a sleeping minister. But the truth of the matter is that President Jonathan supported me, and I have always said that.”
